Petition Collection Meeting

Action Alert!


We need people to collect petition signatures. If you are interested, we will be meeting at the Nanini Branch Library on Shannon Rd on March 5th @ 6:00PM in the Library conference room.


You must be a registered voter in the State of Arizona and attend a 30 min training session.


Nanini Branch Library

7300 N. Shannon Rd

Tucson, AZ



Please RSVP via Email:



Join us now…! Stop the insanity! Say No to Photo Radar. Get involved and take back your government!


76 Responses to Petition Collection Meeting

  1. James Howard says:


  2. G says:

    Distracting Miss Daisy
    The Atlantic has an excellent article on why things like photo radar ultimately end up causing traffic fatalities. I wish more people could understand these risk-analyses. Photo radar is blood money.

  3. l. cameo says:

    I think the cameras are wonderful. If you do any driving around town or on the freeway you will see car and after car not paying a bit of respect to the speed limit. I know this is a selfish society but respect the law and drive the speed limit. If you can not do that you must pay the price.

  4. Bill Conley says:


    Would you feel the same if you knew the city of Tucson was shortening the yellow turn light by more than half to get more people to run the light?

  5. Drew says:

    Count me in! Looking forward to the meeting!

  6. fishbert says:

    I may be out of the state on the 5th… is there another opportunity to volunteer for those of us who may not be able to make this meeting on the 5th?

  7. Bill Conley says:

    I will have several coming up…

    – Bill C

  8. Mike says:

    Just passing by.Btw, your website have great content!

    Making Money $150 An Hour

  9. Mike says:

    Thanks Bill for putting this on! Sorry I could not make it. (I’m already collecting signatures.)
    Let me know when the next sign wave is. Thanks!

  10. Hugs67 says:

    Great meeting last night Bill! Thanks for organizing this! I already have one sheet filled and half way through another! At this rate I will need to get more sheets from you.

  11. Law A. Bidingcitizen says:

    Hi Bill!!!! i would like to ask a few questions, is that ok? how was the meeting last night? what was the turnout? 2? 4? 6? 8? 10? did you tell them how many needed to be collected in a little over 11 months? did you remind them that they had to be registered voters to sign? oh and did you check the status of those that will be doing the collecting… i would hate to see someone ( not registered to vote) waste their time collecting lots and lots and lots of sigs.. just to have them thrown out cause the petitioner was not registered!!!
    one last thing… can you promise me something? can you promise that when you get your group together to dangle some signs…. can you not do it on a freeway overpass? thats pretty dangerous…. you see the guys up here had one of theirs on an overpass… and talk about hypocrites!!! they claim the cameras CAUSE ACCIDENTS and then they go do something irresponsible as that!!!??? peo
    ple waving signs as people drive by doing 55 mph plus!!! and check this out also

    the 5th comment down !!! scares me just to think this guy could even be riding a big wheel!!!!let alone drive a car!!! C R A Z Y!!!


  12. James Howard says:

    Sorry we missed the meeting last night Bill. We have the flu, and decided you all don’t need to get infected with it.

    See you at the next one!

  13. Law A. Bidingcitizen #2 says:

    So I consider myself a safe driver (never got a ticket before in my life or been in an accident). But when a camera nailed me on a technicality issue (trust me, ever day you drive the streets you break some kind of law) it nailed me and it is very difficult to defend yourself. Trust me, you might be for these things but as soon as they nail you because you were “not” the one speeding but someone next to you and you can’t easily say “it wasn’t me, there is a problem with your camera” you won’t be a happy camper. I’m all for these things when they work, you can defend yourself easily and there isn’t a ton of greed attached to them. But take one good look into this and you’ll be changed… only after you get a unfair ticket.

    Oh! Yes! The meeting was great! I’m glad I went and I’m going to the next one (if my schedule will allow)! 🙂

  14. fishbert says:

    I’m glad there are people like L.A.B. out there to keep everyone motivated and fired up to collect (far more than) enough signatures. Every signature is another person made aware that there are things we, the people, can do to affect change.

  15. Law A. Bidingcitizen says:

    law#2…. just a thought!!!! if you got “snapped” but it was suppose to be someone else….. then that means that you were both moving at about the same speed !!!! so your claim of innocence is really….. not true!!! you have what is called “denial”… dont worry ..many people have it and it is their way of not taking responsibility for their actions!!! you see my conscience is clear…. i dont speed ANYWHERE!! i make a point of it… so if i ever get a ticket i will know it was a mistake and i will deal with it from there… and i did get one… i rented a van for a friend of mine ( he owns a small business and was out of town) and one of his empoloyees was driving.. this was 3 years ago.. i warned him about the cameras on the 101… he got flashed and since i as the 1st driver on the contract i got the ticket.. what makes this funny is .. he is black and i am white… i ended up paying the ticket because the city of scottsdale courts are a joke!!! but it was not the fault of the cameras or redflex.. it was the guy driving and the courts!!! was i happy… no !!!i drove the valley streets ( deliveries) for 4.5 years and the way people behave in their cars made and makes me sick to my stomach!!! i really dont care why the cameras were erected … but they are slowing people down!!!

    fishbert- let me clue you in …. 153,000 (and some change) sigs are needed to get this to the ballot…. there are 6.5 mill. az residents…. 2.5 are registered to vote….. so that means for every 10 you get to sign…. 4-5 are not going to hold up… so you in reality need about 250,000 to 300,000 to be safe!!! how many people have told you that they cant sign cause they are not registered? not many… you see… they see the “cause” and they want to sign but many dont realize that they need to be a registered voter.. but at that point to save face they sign it anyway!!!!

  16. Law A. Bidingcitizen says:

    fishbert- have you been to the main camerafrauk site? have you noticed the lack of participation at their sign danglings? they may have 1400 plus members… but they have only 10-20 that have any passion for what they are doing…. 153,000 is a lot to sign up… they dont have the numbers to get this done!!!

    enjoy me while you can… in a few days i will get banned!!!! the guys at the mother ship got tired of me exposing their lies!!! dont know about bill yet… i need to read through some of the stuff he has posted as threads !!!

  17. Law A. Bidingcitizen #3 says:

    So you do see the injustice with the court system. That’s the point! This system is designed to make you pay whether you are guilty or not. They don’t care because they get their money. And you can’t do anything about it because of the court system. It’s not so easy to fix the court system. I can’t run for every judge’s office. :/

  18. Law A. Bidingcitizen says:

    law 3…. thats the best thing about these cameras… they are right 99.999 % of the time!!!! case in point… i dont speed .. if the limit is 65… i do 65 , if its 55 i do 55 and i never have to worry about it…. and if i did get a ticket i would ask to see the moving camera footage that recorded it… if its taking pictures then it can be produced… the problem is that many that get the tickets have been speeding for so long, without getting caught .. they think it does not apply and they dont want to take responsibility!!!! and the worst part is.. they think it is their right to observe only the laws they choose!!!! this system is designed to get people to slow down and not to run yellow lights!!! and they simplified the process .. they kept the fines lower than if you were nailed by an officer and it does not hit your insurance!!! but noooooo… we have to have those that think they will just throw the ticket away!!
    i say do it!! throw it away… and then tell me the next time you get pulled over that you are not sweating it cause you dont really know for sure if the ticket ever went away!!! now there is some anxious moments waiting for the officer to come back and tell you everything is ok or get out of the car you are under arrest for an outstanding warrant… now that will ruin a day!!!!

  19. fishbert says:

    I like you; you’re silly. =)

    Also, how can I too buy stock in the exclamation mark industry? You must be making a killing on it, with all the free time you apparantly have — if a group’s efforts truly are in vain, chiding them for it seems like it would fall pretty far down on the list of priorities for most people.

  20. fishbert says:

    (and that’s all the troll-feeding I’m up for today.)

  21. Law A. Bidingcitizen says:

    come on fishbert!!! you are better than that …right? troll? next comes the “law works for redflex” and all that nonsense!!!! i just want to be sure that as camerfraud goes down…. i keep kicking them so they dont get back up!!!!

  22. Bill Conley says:

    Law A Biding,

    If you needed answers to your question, you should have attended.
    Sounds like you’re a little nervous.. Are you concerned we will succeed?

    Mean while, get a life…

  23. Law A. Bidingcitizen says:

    bill … i think i am going to like you!!!! anyway.. see here is the thing… when you dont answer the questions…. i tend to think that it was a very disappointing turn out!!! mix in your “attitude” and then i am quite sure it was a total flop!!!

    do i sound nervous? ha ha… there is not a chance that you and the like will collect 153,000 VALID signatures!!!!

  24. Bill Conley says:


    I guess we’ll see who’s right in a few months… :}

    – BC

  25. Law A. Bidingcitizen says:

    it will be longer than a few months….

  26. Law A. Bidingcitizen says:

    ok bill… are you currently full time deputy sheriff?

    tell me…. i am sure that you have been on accident scenes from both excessive speed and red lights… tell me… how can you see the carnage from these “accidents” …. and i use that term loosely because someone chooses to run a red\yellow light… and someone chooses to ignore the posted speed limit !! how do not look at the cameras as a way to control the behavior of drivers?

  27. Bill Conley says:


    Like I said, we can agree to disagree..
    My recommendation is to keep posting…you motivate and fire up people to help ban the cameras..Thank You!

  28. Law A. Bidingcitizen says:

    thanks…. let me know when you think i have crossed boundries…. now ..if you dont mind… i am not sure you answered the above question…. and i dont know anyone in law enforcement so i am curious as to what someone with your experience thinks !!!! putting aside of course your feelings about them being for profit and the big brother issues!!!

  29. fishbert says:

    those are some rather large issues to just “put aside”

  30. Bill Conley says:


    That’s silly…”put them aside”.
    Let see here…so far we have;
    – the City of Tucson shortening the yellow turn light from 3.3sec to 2.5 sec; why? Safety of course. The reason is obvious; to get more people to run lights.
    – we have Redflex making decisions on who pays fines and who doesn’t.
    – We have a process server arrested in Tucson that is responsible for having more that a 1000 drivers license suspended because he gave false affidavit of service.
    -We have a private company issuing citations without any due process.
    -The cameras can not prevent an accident from happening, it can only take a picture of one.
    -A camera can not conduct a traffic stop or ask questions.
    -A camera can not conduct a DUI investigation..

    …do I really need to go on…

  31. Law A. Bidingcitizen says:

    yes…. it would be nice to stick to the question… how do you view the cameras as a solution to solving drivers behavior…. as you know adding more law enforcement is not going to happen…. i really dont understand why you cant just answer the question… you have ignored it two times now…. is this how someone in a profession is suppose to behave? my god!! worse than a politician!!!! or maybe that is what this is all about… it is for pt barnum at the mother ship…. that boy wants this issue to be his springboard to an elected position!!!

  32. Steve F. says:

    They don’t solve a drivers behavior. Why would they?

    Some people are bad drivers. Period. It matters not what the courts do, what LE does, what cameras do, nothing.

    I was headed down 22nd, past the Wilmot camera, and in my rearview mirror I saw a guy blow the red (blatantly) and speed right through with not a care in the world.

    Yeah, he got flashed. Certainly two tickets: one for speed, and one for running the light…and he was doing at least 20mph over the limit when he flew by me. I was obeying the law, going 40mph.

    The fact that a camera was there mattered not one bit to this idiot.

    Mind you, it mattered to me, but I don’t run red lights and speed to begin with.

    Only those that are inclined to obey the law to begin with are being punished, and there may be a perfectly valid reason for being 11mph over the limit when the camera flashes you.

    A cop pulls you over, you can explain the situation, and if you’re honest, they may just let you go with a warning.

    With the camera, nope. Either explain to the judge or avoid the process server. 🙂

    Admittedly, it was satisfying to see this guy get flashed, but I doubt the state will ever see a dime from him.

    See, when he gets the ticket, all he has to do is ignore it, and avoid the process server for 90 days.

  33. Bill Conley says:


    Move on…you’re not going to convince anyone…especially me.
    There’s more to law enforcement than adjusting behavior…like fairness, due process, the constitution…

  34. James Howard says:

    When are we going to have another protest? I loved seeing the thousands of thumbs ups and hearing the symphony of car horns last time.

  35. Just say no to LAB says:

    Law A. Bidingcitizen, why don’t you move on to With the other like minded people there, you’ll fit right in.

  36. Just say no to LAB says:

    Wow Lame A Bidingcitizen! It only took you 6 minutes to respond! That’s some serious trolling!

    If the shoe fits…

  37. Paul Emmert says:

    Law A. Bidingcitizen, I just endured the grist mill of our supposed justice system, spending 90 minutes in front of a magistrate that could care less about the many issues I brought to the court on March 4th. I was one of hundreds of otherwise law abiding citizens who have been tagged at one of the camera red light enforced intersections. Judge Leavitt did not care that ATS is not properly licensed to conduct investigations on behalf of law enforcement. Nor did she care that pavement markings all around Tucson violate the Manual for Uniform Traffic Control Devices. She did not care about the fact that at the camera trap, the yellow light duration is 3.05 seconds, yet at an identically configured intersection 1.5 miles north, the non-camera light length is 4.3 seconds. She did not care the “wait line” creates a safety hazard for cross traffic turning left onto Oracle Road (with photographic evidence submitted to the court.) She didn’t care about a precedent setting lawsuit that actually defines the point where motorist enters an intersection irrespective of of prolongation of curb lines. By the way, where are the markings at every Tucson intersection that marks the prolongation, so we motorists can identify the line to proceed or stop safely? The list goes on, but what an incredible waste of time.

    A complete, utter, travesty punctuated by a judge who was more concerned about her own job security than rendering a fair ruling based on legitimate issues that surround this nonsense. Can you imagine the can of worms she would have opened if she actually stepped up to the plate and rendered a ruling based on these significant issues? Kangaroo Court Redefined!

    Since when has law enforcement become involved in “increasing safety?” I thought LEO’s enforced the law. And outsourcing this to a “for-profit” entity is immoral as far as I am concerned.

    This is drive-by taxation, pure and simple. How much longer do we tolerate this? The TPD Chief had the audacity to tell me in writing about how there is a “misperception” regarding revenue generation and that this joke is not quite “break even.” He forgot to mention that 45% of $$$ collected goes to the State Supreme Court. He must think I must be an idiot.

    These cameras are going to come down.

  38. Zebra says:

    I want to thank you for not rolling over. I will be going to court on March 18 for this same intersection. My first ticket in 39 years of driving. I am glad you outlined what you brought up in court..those are actually pretty much the very same facts that I am going to present.

    I have been told by several sources that Riojas has issued an edict that they cannot overturn any photo tickets. I almost wish I had taken the easy way out and paid the $200 and spent the 5 hours in Driving School.But a couple of people that have done it said that they spent the whole time gritting their teeth at the unfairness. And the instructors acknowledge that the intersection is a trap.

    Our recourse is to support the petitions, and perhaps focus on this “special magistrate.” She is the wife of one of the chief of police candidates, I believe. And not a lawyer. I have looked through 2 years of city council notes, and cannot see where she was ever “appointed.” Also, if you examine the contract with ATS, several of their stipulations are not being kept. If they are going to use 0.1 second and a non standard intersection to extract money from thousands of people, shouldn’t they be held to the minutia of the law, also?

    Any other comments or observations would be highly appreciated. And once again…thank you for taking the time and energy to stand up to petty tyranny.

  39. Zebra says:

    And I hate to feed the troll, but, yes. I have changed my behavior at intersections. I now “Gun it” to get past the violation line before the yellow fades.

    Because, in case you haven’t been listening, there isn’t time to safely stop.

    I drive through the intersection several times a week, and I see that more and more people have learned that lesson also.

  40. Paul Emmert says:

    Zebra, I’d like to talk to you. Can you email me at with a phone #?

  41. James Howard says:

    I think I had Judge Leavitt too. I will have to go through my notes. The most I can say is I wasted a hour of her time, because I came away with a fine and having to waste a day in traffic school. I recommend the Sunday session of Tucson Fun School, by the way, the one on the northwest side.

    The City of Tucson and American Traffic Solutions are exploiting a poorly written law, the one defining red-light running. It is significantly different than the way it is defined on page 38 of the Arizona Driver License Handbook ( I followed the rules in the Driver License Handbook, and got the first ticket of my life. But everyone here except LAB understands that. Even the police officer who I talked to just before my court date told me it was a poorly written law, and that I needed to contact my elected officials to get the law changed. She understood that the support of good, law-abiding citizens for the Tucson Police Department was rapidly eroding because of the red light cameras.


  42. Law A.Bidingcitizen says:

    yes zebra … thats the ticket !!! GUN IT!!!! and you claim that you have not had a ticket in 39 years? NOT!!!!!

    in most cases traveling through a light the max speed is about 20 mph!!!! if you can not stop in time then you ARE gunning it….. and for the only reason to beat the yellow….

    boys!!!! its your own fault!!

  43. Paul Emmert says:

    After several hours of watching “behavior” I saw two near rear end collisions, and many people accelerating on both the green arrow and the yellow. I saw people back up from the “wait” line (what does wait mean, incidentally?) over the crosswalk in reverse. Many people have told me they simply avoid these traps and take alternate routes.

    Isn’t it ironic that survival instructors routinely bash this idiocy for what it’s worth?

    I view this as three large elephants in the room. First is the improper service, duping people into responding to the ATS notification. The second is the fact that these cameras are even operating to begin with. Last is ARS 28-645 which used to contain language specifically describing stop lines and crosswalks as intersection boundaries for purposes of judging where to stop or proceed. Because the statute was amended to remove this criteria, there exists no reasonable way for a driver at any Tucson intersection to know exactly where the “prolongation of curb lines” actually are, except at the camera traps. How do I know whether I am in an intersection or not, absent the camera trap wait lines?

    I have the audio transcript of my hearing, which I intend to podcast. You will be able to listen yourself. You’ll hear the patronizing TPD officer, you’ll hear how little the judge had to say.

    I will be meeting with Karen Ullrich soon to give her a similar presentation. The Kangaroo Court chooses to duck for cover, so we need to attack this in another venue.

    These cameras are coming down!

  44. Bill Conley says:


    We get it, you don’t agree with us.
    I think it’s time for you to move on…

  45. Bill Conley says:

    If you feel like debating up to one of our meeting..I’ll be happy to discuss this with you.

  46. James Howard says:


    Let me know when you go see Karen Ulrich – I can come to. I am a mechanical engineer with a lot of experience in timing, acceleration, deceleration, speeds, etc.

  47. Just say no to LAB says:


    It’s time to bump LAB’s ip address. He’s clearly not capable of “getting it”. At the rate he trolls this site, he must be on the clock. Perhaps he’s on Redflex’s or American Traffic Solutions’ payroll?

    Please bump this troll and put him back under the bridge where he belongs.


  48. James Howard says:

    Using the traffic engineering standards of 10ft/sec^2 deceleration and 1 second reaction time, it takes 284 feet and 7.6 seconds to come to a stop from 45 mph.

    distance = (speed^2)/2*deceleration + distance traveled in 1 second

    time = speed/deceleration + 1 second

    Yet the yellow at Oracle and River is only 3 seconds long!

  49. James Howard says:

    The speed limit on southbound Oracle at River is 45 mph. It changes to 40 mph about 50 meters south of River.

  50. Zebra says:

    James: When I confronted Dion at TDOT with that equation, she said “it doesn’t apply to left turns.” Which is where they are picking up 95% of the ‘violations.’

    The assumption is that you will be accelerating from a stop when making a left turn, so you will need less time to stop on yellow.

    ATS has done their homework..double left turn bays >400 feet long, a violation line placed 40 feet beyond the stop bar, 45 MPH speed limit, downhill grade, a state highway suddenly turned into a municipal intersection…all these add up to a cash cow.

  51. Paul Emmert says:

    Another fallacy is that the “trap” has no idea now fast a motorist is moving when approaching the intersection. The faster a driver is going, the longer distance to stop. Oh, and lets not forget that of the 3 seconds, traffic engineers agree that it takes 1 second to react (observe a light change, then decide whether to proceed or stop safely.) That leaves 2 seconds of motion to either stop or proceed.

    Does anyone know if it’s permissible to stop past the crosswalk, but prior to the “wait” line? And if you do know the answer, how do you know? (i.e. where in the statutes or the Arizona Drivers Manual?) Where do you stop if there is no line painted? How do you know where the curb line prolongation is when you have 3 seconds to decide whether to go or stop safely?

    Here is another good one. For those of you who have been tagged at River/Oracle, take a good slow motion look at the yellow arrows when they turn off. They do not go off at the same instant. The far stanchion actually stays on for a detectable time longer. Ah, but the system passes a self-test every night at midnight. When I was quizzing Mr. TPD cop in court, he had no idea what specifically was being tested, and of course it’s impossible to cross-examine the camera. Kangaroo Court redefined!

    Cash cow is an understatement.

    The cameras are coming down!

  52. Law A. Bidingcitizen says:

    paul…. you still have not answered my question.. does this mean that you are not going to

  53. James Howard says:

    Zebra wrote: When I confronted Dion at TDOT with that equation, she said “it doesn’t apply to left turns.”

    Yes, and I figured out the source of that. ADOT came up with that policy in the late 1970s and early 1980s, where they figured a 3 second left turn arrow was all you ever needed. This policy predates huge intersections like Oracle & River, and all the modern regulations they have to follow for things like wheelchair access. It also predates photo enforcement. It is based on the assumption that most people don’t go through at 45. My counter argument to that is it is legal to go through at 45, so they should set it up for every legal case.

    Pima County chose to ignore that rule at Oracle and Ina – the left turn arrow there is 4 seconds long. If the left turn arrow at Oracle and River were 4 seconds long, 99% of the red light running instances would disappear.

    Of course, the way it is now is a great advertisement for everything wrong with photo enforcement. I wouldn’t be here if I hadn’t gotten a ticket for being 0.1 seconds too late through my left turn.

  54. James Howard says:

    Paul wrote:

    Does anyone know if it’s permissible to stop past the crosswalk, but prior to the “wait” line? And if you do know the answer, how do you know? (i.e. where in the statutes or the Arizona Drivers Manual?) Where do you stop if there is no line painted? How do you know where the curb line prolongation is when you have 3 seconds to decide whether to go or stop safely?

    The way the law reads, you cannot stop there. So, you are damned if you go, and damned if you stop.
    ARS 28-873
    A. Except if necessary to avoid conflict with other traffic or if in compliance with law or the directions of a police officer or traffic control device, a person shall not stop, stand or park a vehicle in any of the following places:
    5. On a crosswalk.
    6. Within twenty feet of a crosswalk at an intersection.

    When you call TPD photo enforcement (791-4440) you get different answers about that depending on who you talk to. Some say it applies but they don’t enforce that. Others say it doesn’t apply. I had one tell me to stop at the wait line. You are blocking the traffic turning left if you do that.

    I would recommend everyone call them and see how many different answers we get. I called them at least 10 times over the course of the last few months.

    And I used meters in my example just to get a rise out of law breaking citizen .

  55. Paul Emmert says:

    James, you are correct! So, lets say the driver of a big rig or other long vehicle decides to stop by the legally undefined “wait line” so as to not “run the red.” His trailer will be on the crosswalk. He can’t back up either. Woops!

    Another item to ponder. Is it fair to say that the 3 second “minimum” yellow phase length is the minimum based on stopping (or proceeding safely) by the stop bar or crosswalk? At Oracle/River (45 mph speed limit) the 3 seconds remain, even though a driver must travel an extra 45 feet to clear (supposedly) into the intersection, as compared to the traditionally accepted stop point everywhere else in the country.

    Judge Leavitt did not, and does not care that the measure with which a driver is allegedly “running a red light” is broken. Flaws abound, yet those flaws are deemed irrelevant in her court room. The analogy would be like claiming to measure exactly 10 feet with a tape measure, but the tape measure is bent and broken. By Ms. Leavitt’s judgment, a person is still guilty, even though the measurement is fundamentally useless.

    Oh, I forgot to mention something else. These cameras are measuring hundredths of seconds, yet the camera is not in a position to view precisely the position of a vehicle. Imagine Olympic swimmer Micheal Phelps being judged by a camera not directly in line with the “finish” or “wait” line.

    The joke is on us. Are we going to do something about it?

    The cameras are coming down!

    Incidentally, court audio transcripts cost 17 bucks. Got mine today. Can’t wait to post it live!

  56. James Howard says:

    There was an audio transcript! I didn’t know that!

    The prosecutor was a police officer. He gave my speed as 35.2364 feet per second. No one has ever taught him anything about significant digits.

    Yes, the joke is on us, but we will have the last laugh! In the meantime, I figure the only way I can get my $300 fine back is to keep my sales tax dollars out of the city limits – that is $15,000 I am not spending there. No more stopping on the way home from work at grocery stores in the city limits. I drive past my house, into the county, and buy there.

  57. Zebra says:

    You are exactly right, James.
    I asked Lt Pryor this question last October. He admitted that you could be cited if you stopped past the “Stop Bar.” When I pointed out the 40 or so feet of ‘no man’s land’ before you cleared the violation line, and how would take almost 2 seconds to traverse this distance at 20MPH, his answer was “But no policeman is going to cite you for that at that intersection.”

    So you have 3.05 seconds after the yellow arrow to react and decide if you can safely stop behind the stop bar. Assume 1 second reaction time, 2 seconds to traverse the no man’s land, you have 0.05 seconds to stop your car.

    In reality, the slower you are going, the more likely it is that you won’t make it. That is why so many people are getting the first ticket of their lives at this intersection.

  58. Zebra says:

    Paul, James, and I are 2 people?

    We are having a discussion, and an exchange of ideas. Which is what forums are for.

    Why are you here?

  59. James Howard says:

    Hi Zebra,

    It sounds like you and I have been talking to the same officers. They have really set up a no-win situation there. Between my wife & I, we have met at least 20 people directly who have gotten either their first ticket in their life turning left at Oracle & River, or the first ticket since they were teenagers. Then, there are all the people who know someone who had gotten their first ticket there. They were handing out 4000 tickets a month in the first few months, and 88% of them were for people turning left. That is a lot of money, and money corrupts.

  60. Paul Emmert says:

    Just follow the money. Redflex and ATS are earning revenue from every single notice issued.

    And I mean to say notice. These are not citations, and responding to the notice means an alleged perpetrator is waiving his/her right to proper service. Imagine what would happen if everyone figured this out. Ha!

    The cameras are coming down!

  61. Zebra says:

    The ‘Special Limited Magistrate” hearing most of these cases is the wife of the Assistant Police Chief. Does that sound a little too cozy to anyone else? Especially since she is the letter…Riojas’ mandate to not dismiss a single one?

    I am having trouble getting statistics on how many are overturned, however Miranda admits there are ‘very few.’ And since they are mainly getting cautious drivers, who are elegible for the 4 hour class/$200 option, the percentage challenged is low. I wish my concience would have let me do that.

    Have you checked on the figures lately, Walt? I haven’t called in a couple months, but it looks like the light is flashing less, (since people have figured out they need to speed up or avoid it completely.)

  62. Paul Emmert says:

    I actually saw on the news last night that Mr Leavitt is apparently a candidate for Chief of Police. Can you say that everyone is sleeping together with American Traffic Solutions?

  63. James Howard says:

    I have noticed there is a lot less traffic going through that intersection. I used to drive through it every day on my way to work, but now I take a different route. I drove through it this morning and was amazed at how different it was.

    The camera used to flash almost every light cycle, but now there is so little traffic that it rarely happens, simply because there is no car at the intersection when the light turns yellow. People are avoiding it. No doubt TPD and the City will cite this as proof the cameras are working, and neglect to mention that the traffic volume is significantly less. They have totally botched the new police chief search – and they botched photo enforcement.

  64. Indomitus says:

    Clearly we have a single individual, a provocateur of the worst sort trying to warp the conversation through obfuscation and ad homonym attacks, interspersed throughout a pointless, insupportable, and inflammatory rhetoric. He (she? it?) simply writes whatever he believes will anger the legitimate participants. It is petty and puerile, and I expect he would probably like to be banned so that he can crow about how all the “law breakers” won’t let him have his say. Well, I hope he is not banned. Let him rant and continue tapping infantile drivel from his keyboard. The free citizens of this State will prevail over the apparatchiks and the witless thralls. The cameras will be gone. And he will remain, as he always was, irrelevant. You know who I’m writing about, don’t you, Law Fearing.Slave? My words strike too close to home for you to mistake them. But you needn’t bother responding to my post. I have no intention of carrying on a conversation with a moron. You’ve been spanked. Now go home to your mommy and leave these nice people alone.

    Signing off;
    Indomitus Ingenuus

  65. Paul Emmert says:

    “I have no intention of carrying on a conversation with a moron. You’ve been spanked. Now go home to your mommy and leave these nice people alone.”

    Absolutely priceless! Thanks for the chuckle.

  66. James Howard says:

    I found the ADOT guidelines:

    The left turn signal timing is on page 4.

    On page 5 it states:

    “The typical travel speed for left turning vehicles is assumed to be 25 mph. A different speed may be
    used if speed samples indicate another speed is more appropriate.”

    Clearly, the 25 mph speed is not appropriate, and they need to fix the timing.

  67. Doc says:

    Oh My GOD! You Tucson folks are gettin’ HAMMERED!!! What is up with this judge leavitt? & she’s th’ wife of th’ current vice police chief…who’s in th’ running to be th’ CHIEF?!? Hey listen. I know none of us are made of money. But this riojas totaliarianist says he wants NONE of these scams kicked out? Who is this guy? If you go to court & prove your case, they gotta’ go with that. I believe a decent lawyer…oops! That’s a double negative! Anyway, a lawyer SHOULD be able to make short work of these 2 creatures, & maybe nix that other guy’s run for chief in th’ process. Then, perhaps a call to the Tucson chapter of th’ “effa-be-eye” or th’ “justice dept”. If enough people contact those guys, they gotta’ look into it! That whole thing reeks of racketeering! Good Luck!

    Remember…F R E E D O M ! ! !-Doc from Prescott

  68. James Howard says:

    Hi Doc,

    When I talked to one of the clerks at Tucson City Court, he said Oracle and River has set records for the number of tickets at a red light camera. One lady who was in her 70s and had a perfect lifetime driving record got 3 tickets in one week! He said she was absolutely livid, and rightly so! He told me more than any other public servant – all the others are talking like they scared to be critical.

    The trouble is, everything there meets standards, so it is hard to fight it. It is also right inside the city limit, so most people who get nailed there are not residents of the city. Therefore, they have no voice with the Tucson City Council.

    The engines on US Airways Flight 1549 met standards too, but clearly were inadequate for their task. I hope we can end this without too many more people getting soaked.

  69. Doc says:

    Hey! While I’m thinking about it…Don’t ALL judges have to follow the Arizona State Constitution? And doesn’t Tucson/ATS toss out scamera tickets flashed upon “fleet” vehicles? Such as the UPS truck, rental cars, etc.? Is so, then these “judges/magistraights?whatever” are nailed! Thanks Judge Keegan of Suprise! Article II, section 13 of the Arizona State Constitution talks about “Equal Priveliges & Immunities; No law shall be enacted granting to any citizen, class of citizens, or corporations, other than municipal, priveliges or immunities which, upon the same terms shall notequally belong to all citizens or corporations.”

    What that means is that if these constabularic morons are tossing out “fleet” scamera tickets, but not tickets issued to private citizens, that violates Article II, Section 13 of the Arizona State Constitution! Case dismissed! So, if the constabularic morons are makin’ citizens pay anyway…THAT, ladies & Gentlemen…is RACKETEERING!!!

    Now, Bill Conley would have way more insight into how to go about having these THIEVES arrested, & charged, than I do. But again, a lawyer, & a phone call to th’ U.S. Justice Dept. might get these folks, as well as th’ city of Rip-Off…oops, I meant Tucson…to refund some monie$!

    Remember…F R E E D O M ! ! !-Doc from Prescott

  70. Doc says:

    James Howard- Ain’t it just WONDERFUL how your city employees are so “honest & hard working”? All this time, & all the times you’ve spoken to various other city employees…Just makes ya’ wanna’ trust ALL the city employees, don’t it?!?! I wonder how the Tucson P.D. feels about their trust level going into th’ toilet? ‘Cuz if some of ’em are lyin’, it’s best to go with ALL of ’em are lyin’! So, when JUDGES are in on th’ scam, that’s all th’ more trustworthy for th’ citizens, huh? I feel so sorry for you folks. I really hope this gets fixed for yous!

    Remember…F R E E D O M ! ! !-Doc from Prescott

  71. Zebra says:

    Thanks for your words of support, Doc.

    James: I had overlooked that (I took Dion’s word for it…she sounded sincere..) If we use that assumption of speed, looks like the yellow light is STILL too short. and that is assuming a standard intersection. Not the bastardized intersection in question.

    I have an idea. Let’s both call the TPD and ask for figures at that intersection. daily. The contract stipulates daily, so they should have them.

    Meet you back here on Tuesday. It will be interesting to see what we get.

  72. Bill Conley says:

    For those of you who called me for more petitions, I have more coming tomorrow. You are all doing a great job!!! I will be picking up you completed petitions.

    I will be setting up several more meeting and training sessions soon.

  73. Law Abiding Citizen is a worthless troll says:

    Law Abiding Citizen is a worthless troll. His assertion that he has been ruled out as as a Reflex and/or American Traffic Solutions employee simply because he is posting from a residential area in Gilbert, AZ is ludicrous. Anyone can be on one’s payroll and work from home with a different location as his employer. (or the public library) This Law Abiding Citizen Character is either on the payroll of Reflex and/or ATS, or he is some geeked out tweaker that that thinks THEY will go away if he keeps posting on this site. Listen Law Abiding Citizen, this issue WILL get to the polls in 2012, and the voters of Arizona WILL voter to rid the state of these traffic cameras. You apparently like to voice your mis-construed views on this site. Why don’t you attend a camerafraud meeting and voice your opinions? That’s right, your a fraud and fake of your own kind. Now go away already.

  74. Law Abiding Citizen is a worthless troll says:

    By the way, every time this Law Abiding Citizen character posts on this site, I will set aside an hour of my personal life to gather signatures from Arizona registered voters at the libraries, grocery stores, restaurants, court houses, coffee shops, traffic schools, conventions, gun shows, etc… There are so many people that jump at the opportunity to sign these petitions. It’s great when they look you in the eyes, shake your hand, and say “thank you”. Oh yeah, I will make sure the people signing ARE registered to vote in Arizona before they complete the petition. And if they are not registered to vote, I will help them register and then collect have them complete the petition. The really interesting aspect to this is that everywhere I go to collect signatures, the VAST MAJORITY of the people are all ready registered to vote and AGAINST this big brother style of traffic enforcement and taxation. That being said, I’ll see you at the polls in November 2010.

  75. Tara Carreon says:

    Email to various Wardpersons:

    Dear Gentlepersons:

    I am absolutely outraged that I got a ticket in the mail today for turning left on a red light that was THRUST AT ME before the normal timeperiod! There was one other car in front of me, and I was only the second car to go, and the light turned INSTANTLY red!!! The photography lights were flashing, and it was all VERY CONFUSING! My husband said, “I bet you’re going to get a ticket for this,” and sure enough, here it is in the mail today. I AM ABSOLUTELY INNOCENT! I will NOT pay this $350 fine for doing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG! YOU are the guilty ones! Making this deal with this for-profit corporation to terrorize us drivers, shorten lights, cause confusion and probably accidents — YOU ARE THE GUILTY ONES! I will NOT put up with this. I will fight this to my last breath! This is the MOST EVIL THING THAT HAS EVER HAPPENED TO US! You guys put a STOP to this right now, or you are going to pay the price in the next election. I am signing petitions, posting at bulletin boards, and talking with a lawyer about a class action lawsuit against the City of Tucson and this screwed up company. You are going to pay. You are going to terrorize and bankrupt our town worse than it already is. SHAME, SHAME, SHAME ON YOU!

    Turn this monster around before it’s too late!

    Tara Carreon

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